[47] in Discussion of MIT-community interests
Re: LIVING WAGE SIT-IN AT HARVARD (fwd)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ray Jones)
Thu Apr 19 17:49:17 2001
To: "Sourav K. Mandal" <Sourav.Mandal@ikaran.com>
Cc: mit-talk@MIT.EDU
From: Ray Jones <rjones@pobox.com>
In-Reply-To: "Sourav K. Mandal"'s message of "Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:50:15 -0400"
Date: 19 Apr 2001 17:48:24 -0400
Message-ID: <ppwn19cv9w7.fsf@PIXIE.MIT.EDU>
"Sourav K. Mandal" <Sourav.Mandal@ikaran.com> writes:
> "Ray Jones <rjones@pobox.com>" wrote:
> > ...could just as easily be flipped on the X=Y axis to yield evidence
> > for a "richer countries tend to allow more freedom" hypothesis, which
> > I think is just as valid, but less ideologically motivated.
>
> Do you really think that is plausible? Wealth grows, instead of
> remaining static, because economic efficiencies get exploited. How can
> this happen without the freedom to do so? Conversely, I don't see the
> causal link from wealth to freedom. Our freedoms are being etched away
> daily in the US (Drug War, political correctness, taxes), though wealth
> in increasing (though this rate of increase has slowed recently). In
> China, Internet and press are censored, and capital activity has to be
> okayed by party bosses, despite booming trade. And, women are still
> subjugated in the Middle East, even in oil rich countries.
Yes, I do think it's plausible. I don't have my sources in front of
me, but I'm not really trying to prove a point. I'm just saying out
that that particular graph and underlying study are not proof, nor
even very good evidence.
Also, whenever I see a medium-sized laundry list of examples in a
discussion, I remember one of my favorite mantras (attribution
forgotten): "The plural of anecdote is not data." I have seen much
more comprehensive analyses, though I'm sure there are "scientific"
studies that land on both sides of the economic freedom vs GDP debate.
Both possible directions of cause and effect are believable, in my
mind.
Again, I don't really care, particularly. I don't have any hard data
to point you to. However, to quote Andrew Brooks, "I'm not going to
let the hypocrisy of my statement prevent me from making a valid
point."
> > So, the authors of the study that featured this graph (2 leaders of
> > the Heritage Foundation, and an assistant editor at the Wall Street
> > Journal) ranked various, highly subjective factors to produce data
> > that shows that more freedom _under their rankings_ yield a higher
> > GDP. That's some solid scientific work there, yup.
>
> Their dataset is free to download -- go for it. At any rate, their
> methodology, while qualitative, is no less objective than that used by
> various left-wing orgs to gauge human rights and poverty.
Ah, the "they started it" argument. Quite a rhetorical coup you've
pulled there. I yield.
Ray Jones
