[98217] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] The Legend of Gorath part 3
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Mar 24 02:38:38 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <8D1151CD984E2E1-1860-50FD9@webmail-d223.sysops.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:38:17 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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>>> My mail program doesn't let me quote text in an intelligent way. MY text
is marked with >>>
From: Brad Wilson [mailto:bmacliam@aol.com]
Sent: March 23, 2014 19:07
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] The Legend of Gorath part 3
I'm not completely clear on which speech verbs use 'e' and which do not.
Does it depend on whether it's directly quoted speech or not.
{yIH vImuS ja'} "I hate tribbles, he said"
{yIH muS 'e' ja'} "He said that he hates tribbles"
>>> Only ja' and jatlh are used as verbs of saying, and they don't take 'e'
when used for that purpose. Marc has contradicted the restriction to these
two verbs of saying, using jang as a verb of saying in Power Klingon. There
is a suggestion in this interview that 'e' might be used in attributed,
non-quoted speech, but we've never seen it happen, AFAIK.
http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-hlqed-07-4.txt
Regarding noun-noun constructions, it would seem that a possessive should
goes on the 2nd noun. {'Iw HIqDaj} sounds so much more correct than the
macabre {'IwDaj HIq}.
I had written {HoSwIJ Hoch} but perhaps {HoS HochwIj} is more correct?
About the alternative {HoSwIj naQ}. Does the possessive go on the noun like
that, or on the verb-adjective as in {HoS naQwIj} ?
>>> Put it on the item possessed by the possessor the suffix references.
>>> bu'wI' HIp = my sergeant's uniform, i.e. the uniform worn by the
sergeant I report to or supervise.
>>> bu' HIpwIj = my sergeant's uniform, i.e. the uniform that belongs to me
and denotes my rank as sergeant (or possibly the rank of the person I took
it from)
>> pe'vIl roS jIvang.
> The purpose of {roS} here isn't clear
I have from HQ 10.2 that {pe'vIl roS} is an adverbial idiom to convey agile,
nimble or spry.
>>> roS is a verb, and vang is another verb. You can't put them both in the
sentence there or they will fight to the death, leaving one. Choose the
victor now.
Given that, I do prefer your rendering with nouns - the repetition is quite
satisfying.
> SIQmeH Seghchaj 'Iq DowIj, 'Iq laHwIj, 'Iq QobwIj
I take your point about my use of {tlhop'a'}.
Are there any restrictions to placing noun suffixes on pronouns?
Could I say {SoH'a' tlhop} "in front of your greatness"?.
>>> Reading it, I would be confused and then suppose you were referring to
some spirit of you-ness bigger than merely you. The tool for what you want
to do is -neS
How about belittling someone with {-Hom} on a pronoun?
>>> It would read more as "mini-you" not "you, whom I insult."
>> HoSghajchu' 'e' vIvItchugh
I think what I meant to say was {HoSghajchu' 'e' DavItchugh} "If you tell
the truth that he is so powerful"
>>> I'm not used to seeing the truth as the object of vIt. I wouldn't use
it that way, but can't outright reject the idea.
- Qov
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>>>>=
My mail program doesn’t let me quote text in an intelligent way. =
MY text is marked with >>><o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> <=
/o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Brad =
Wilson [mailto:bmacliam@aol.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> March 23, 2014 =
19:07<br><b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tlhingan-hol] The Legend of Gorath part 3<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
'm not completely clear on which speech verbs use 'e' and which do =
not.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>D=
oes it depend on whether it's directly quoted speech or =
not.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>{=
yIH vImuS ja'} "I hate tribbles, he =
said"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>{=
yIH muS 'e' ja'} "He said that he hates =
tribbles"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>>>> Only ja’ and jatlh are used as verbs of saying, =
and they don’t take ‘e’ when used for that =
purpose. Marc has contradicted the restriction to these two verbs of =
saying, using jang as a verb of saying in Power Klingon. There is a =
suggestion in this interview that ‘e’ might be used in =
attributed, non-quoted speech, but we’ve never seen it happen, =
AFAIK.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>http://klingonska.org/canon/1998-12-hlqed-07-4.txt<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>R=
egarding noun-noun constructions, it would seem that a possessive should =
goes on the 2nd noun. {'Iw HIqDaj} sounds so much more correct than the =
macabre {'IwDaj HIq}.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
had written {HoSwIJ Hoch} but perhaps {HoS HochwIj} is more =
correct?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A=
bout the alternative {HoSwIj naQ}. Does the possessive go on the noun =
like that, or on the verb-adjective as in {HoS naQwIj} ?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><br><br>>>> Put it on the item possessed by the possessor the =
suffix references. <br><br>>>> bu’wI’ HIp =3D my =
sergeant’s uniform, i.e. the uniform worn by the sergeant I report =
to or supervise.<br>>>> bu’ HIpwIj =3D my =
sergeant’s uniform, i.e. the uniform that belongs to me and =
denotes my rank as sergeant (or possibly the rank of the person I took =
it from)</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&=
gt;> pe'vIl roS jIvang.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&=
gt; The purpose of {roS} here isn't =
clear<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
have from HQ 10.2 that {pe'vIl roS} is an adverbial idiom to convey =
agile, nimble or spry.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>>>> roS is a verb, and vang is another verb. You can’t =
put them both in the sentence there or they will fight to the death, =
leaving one. Choose the victor now. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>G=
iven that, I do prefer your rendering with nouns - the repetition is =
quite satisfying.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&=
gt; SIQmeH Seghchaj 'Iq DowIj, 'Iq laHwIj, 'Iq =
QobwIj<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
take your point about my use of =
{tlhop'a'}.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A=
re there any restrictions to placing noun suffixes on =
pronouns?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>C=
ould I say {SoH'a' tlhop} "in front of your =
greatness"?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>.<br><br>>>> Reading it, I would be confused and then suppose =
you were referring to some spirit of you-ness bigger than merely you. =
The tool for what you want to do is -neS<br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>H=
ow about belittling someone with {-Hom} on a pronoun?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>>>> It would read more as “mini-you” not =
“you, whom I insult.”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>&=
gt;> HoSghajchu' 'e' vIvItchugh<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I=
think what I meant to say was {HoSghajchu' 'e' =
DavItchugh} "If you tell the truth that he is so =
powerful"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>>>> I’m not used to seeing the truth as the object of =
vIt. I wouldn’t use it that way, but can’t outright =
reject the idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
><br>- Qov</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
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