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daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Mon Jul 31 11:00:13 2017
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From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:30:08 +0630
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] SuStel please tell me, I need to know..
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*ja'chuqghachraj vIlaDtaHvIS jIghel vIneHchoH je, 'ach pab bopmo' DIvI' Hol
vIqaq. toH...*
SuStel, you used *-qu'* on *jatlh* to express not intensity of the action
or state the verb is describing (e.g. "speak a lot" or "speak loudly" or
"speak really well" which would have been possible interpretations for me),
but as an emphasis marker, like SPEAKING (as opposed to anything else),
sort of like topicalizing a verb.
Is there canonical evidence for this usage? I'm currently in Myanmar and
didn't bring my TKD, so I can't check it easily now. But this usage strikes
me as odd. Usually so-called "intensifiers" cannot do this in languages,
but I don't know how Okrand described *-qu'* exactly.
*mIyamavo' qavan*,
- Andr=C3=A9
P.S.: *Do'Ha' naQbe' Sindarin Hol Quenya Hol je. jIQochbe'. Esperanto Hol
tlhIngan Hol je vIjatlhlaH. 'opleS latlh Hol 'oghlu'ta'bogh vIghojchugh,
vaj Na'vi Hol vIwIv. muvuQqu' pabDaj! *
On 31 Jul 2017 21:06, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 7/31/2017 10:20 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> SuStel:
>
> jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS
>
> jIH:
>
> Or is it rather "in order that he/they speaks/speak a lot, klingon is mor=
e complete than quenya" ?
>
> SuStel
>
> My intention was is the last one
>
> Perhaps the reason of my confusion, becomes clearer now. If instead of
> {jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS}, we had
> {jatlhqu'lu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS} meaning "in
> order for someone to speak..", then I could have understood the
> meaning better. Reading the {jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya
> naQ puS} and understanding "in order that he/they speaks/speak a lot,
> klingon is more complete than quenya", I begun to wonder who the
> "he/they" was/were. Let alone that I did the mistake of thinking that
> the {tlhIngan Hol} was part of the {meH}ed construction, as opposed to
> the law'/puS construction.
>
> I'm not sure that would have helped. You weren't interpreting *tlhIngan
> Hol* as the subject of *jatlhqu'meH;* you were interpreting it as the
> head noun of *jatlhqu'meH.* Adding a *-lu'* wouldn't have changed
> anything.
>
> Klingon purpose clauses are often used in a sort of infinite way. You
> don't say *ghojlu'meH taj;* you say *ghojmeH taj.* A subject is not
> always necessary or even implied. Sometimes it is speculated that you nee=
d
> a subject if the purpose clause attaches to a sentence instead of a noun,
> but we don't really know, and no survey of canon has been done recently o=
n
> that.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto"><b>ja'chuqghachraj vIlaDtaHvIS jIghel vIneHchoH je, &=
#39;ach pab bopmo' DIvI' Hol vIqaq. toH...</b><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">SuStel, you used <b>-qu'</b> on <b>jatlh</b> t=
o express not intensity of the action or state the verb is describing (e.g.=
"speak a lot" or "speak loudly" or "speak really =
well" which would have been possible interpretations for me), but as a=
n emphasis marker, like SPEAKING (as opposed to anything else), sort of lik=
e topicalizing a verb.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=
s there canonical evidence for this usage? I'm currently in Myanmar and=
didn't bring my TKD, so I can't check it easily now. But this usag=
e strikes me as odd. Usually so-called "intensifiers" cannot do t=
his in languages, but I don't know how Okrand described <b>-qu'</b>=
exactly.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><b>mIyamavo=
9; qavan</b>,</div><div dir=3D"auto">- Andr=C3=A9</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
r></div><div dir=3D"auto">P.S.: <b>Do'Ha' naQbe' <i>Sindarin</i=
> Hol <i>Quenya</i> Hol je. jIQochbe'. <i>Esperanto</i> Hol tlhIngan Ho=
l je vIjatlhlaH. 'opleS latlh Hol 'oghlu'ta'bogh vIghojchug=
h, vaj <i>Na'vi</i> Hol vIwIv. muvuQqu' pabDaj!=C2=A0</b></div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 31 Jul 2017 =
21:06, "SuStel" <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">suste=
l@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"m_-7445433120632869946moz-cite-prefix">On 7/31/2017 10:20=
AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<pre>SuStel:
</pre>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
<pre>jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>jIH:
</pre>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
<pre>Or is it rather "in order that he/they speaks/speak a lot=
, klingon is more complete than quenya" ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>SuStel
</pre>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
<pre>My intention was is the last one
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Perhaps the reason of my confusion, becomes clearer now. If inst=
ead of
{jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS}, we had
{jatlhqu'lu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quenya naQ puS} meaning &=
quot;in
order for someone to speak..", then I could have understood the
meaning better. Reading the {jatlhqu'meH tlhIngan Hol naQ law' Quen=
ya
naQ puS} and understanding "in order that he/they speaks/speak a lot,
klingon is more complete than quenya", I begun to wonder who the
"he/they" was/were. Let alone that I did the mistake of thinking =
that
the {tlhIngan Hol} was part of the {meH}ed construction, as opposed to
the law'/puS construction.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm not sure that would have helped. You weren't interpretin=
g <b>tlhIngan
Hol</b> as the subject of <b>jatlhqu'meH;</b> you were
interpreting it as the head noun of <b>jatlhqu'meH.</b> Adding a
<b>-lu'</b> wouldn't have changed anything.</p>
<p>Klingon purpose clauses are often used in a sort of infinite way.
You don't say <b>ghojlu'meH taj;</b> you say <b>ghojmeH taj.<=
/b>
A subject is not always necessary or even implied. Sometimes it is
speculated that you need a subject if the purpose clause attaches
to a sentence instead of a noun, but we don't really know, and no
survey of canon has been done recently on that.<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_-7445433120632869946moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-7445433120632869946moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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<br></blockquote></div></div>
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