[102224] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karen Alessio)
Thu Nov 12 06:52:31 2015
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+Sx0EU13rXDHSTvBom_ksTyHeR=tmByJD17-PoKyiP_A@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:52:14 -0500
From: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>
To: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the ending
for inhabitants of a place.
I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Let me know if you approve.
>
> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the
> defiance of the original phrase.
>
> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simpl=
e
> as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I
> believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the
> culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant
> words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close t=
o
> Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for
> war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people
> stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand
> combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
>
> > Separtanpu=E2=80=99
>
> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference
>> between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words i=
n
>> one language to the closest words in another language and tie them toget=
her
>> with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second langua=
ge,
>> then you have encoded one message into another language.
>>
>> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original
>> statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statem=
ent
>> using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the
>> second language, then you have a chance of translating the original mess=
age.
>>
>> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying t=
o
>> translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand
>> what you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at tra=
nslation:
>>
>> Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIch=
aghchugh vaj
>> SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.
>>
>> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!
>>
>> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that wer=
e
>> contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I
>> don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in orde=
r to better convey
>> the expressions.
>>
>> Let me know if you approve.
>>
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > A moment of clarity
>> >
>> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of
>> the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myse=
lf.
>> This concerns something,which is well known to experienced
>> klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to
>> digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following
>> happened.
>> >
>> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king
>> leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender h=
is
>> arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get the=
m"
>> which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
>> >
>> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in
>> klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure =
out
>> the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the
>> "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* rig=
ht.
>> >
>> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things
>> clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my =
way
>> in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became
>> clearer.
>> >
>> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
>> >
>> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is
>> "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't k=
now
>> ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as
>> defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i
>> have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he hea=
rd
>> it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
>> >
>> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak
>> today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which =
in
>> no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the
>> original phrase did.
>> >
>> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find al=
l
>> kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that
>> modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement)
>> feeling of the original phrase.
>> >
>> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
>> >
>> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon
>> lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate i=
n
>> current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon
>> would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
>> >
>> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be abl=
e
>> to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any
>> other language has to say. things don't work that way.
>> >
>> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has it=
s
>> beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inabili=
ty
>> to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficien=
cy"
>> ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages a=
re
>> meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that
>> individual people are always different compared to each other.
>> >
>> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always ech=
o
>> in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read
>> him in the original klingon.."
>> >
>> > be that as it may..
>> >
>> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
>> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
>> >
>> > cpt qunnoQ
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-n=
gan"was the ending for inhabitants of a place.<br>
I'm curious, still a beginner myself.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" =
<<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<b=
r type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div><div><div><div>> Let me know if you approve.<br><br></div>it is a =
wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the defiance of=
the original phrase.<br><br></div>the beauty of the original phrase,the &q=
uot;molon lave" is that it is as simple as can be,and that it is said =
in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I believe whoever heard it,mus=
t have been *very* pissed) It expresses the culture Spartans had, a warrior=
's culture in which many and flamboyant words were to be avoided. In fa=
ct I believe that Spartans were as close to Klingons as can be. They (Spart=
ans) hated luxury,training constantly for war. And of course every Klingon =
would admire the fact,that 300 people stood against an empire killing thous=
ands (literally) in hand to hand combat,achieving a glorious death in the e=
nd..<br><br></div>> Separtanpu=E2=80=99<br><br></div><div>why {Separtanp=
u'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?<br></div><div><br></div><br></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 11, 2=
015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmit=
ti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The issue I think you are str=
uggling with is the crux of the difference between translating and encoding=
. If you try to take the closest words in one language to the closest words=
in another language and tie them together with the closest grammatical for=
m that you can find in the second language, then you have encoded one messa=
ge into another language.<br>
<br>
If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original statem=
ent and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement using=
the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the second l=
anguage, then you have a chance of translating the original message.<br>
<br>
After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to t=
ranslate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand what=
you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at translatio=
n:<br>
<br>
Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIchagh=
chugh vaj SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.<br>
<br>
Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!<br>
<br>
Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were c=
ontextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I don=
=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to b=
etter convey the expressions.<br>
<br>
Let me know if you approve.<br>
<br>
pItlh<br>
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br>
<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> A moment of clarity<br>
><br>
> I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of=
the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself=
. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,st=
ill it remains something that newcomers may find hard to digest. At least i=
was finding hard to digest myself,until the following happened.<br>
><br>
> earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonida=
s' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arm=
s ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them=
" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.<br>
><br>
> but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,so=
mething didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out t=
he klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the &q=
uot;feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *=
feel* right.<br>
><br>
> but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things cl=
earer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way i=
n a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clear=
er.<br>
><br>
> but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.<=
br>
><br>
> the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is=
"molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who d=
oesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will=
*feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fac=
t,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's mes=
senger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..<br>
><br>
> but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak to=
day,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get th=
em" which in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggress=
ion as the original phrase did.<br>
><br>
> ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find al=
l kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that mod=
ern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) f=
eeling of the original phrase.<br>
><br>
> thinking all this,i asked myself..<br>
><br>
> does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "m=
olon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot tran=
slate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that k=
lingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?<br>
><br>
> finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be abl=
e to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any ot=
her language has to say. things don't work that way.<br>
><br>
> anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has it=
s beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inabilit=
y to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "defi=
ciency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that l=
anguages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same w=
ay that individual people are always different compared to each other.<br>
><br>
> maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always=
echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you h=
ave read him in the original klingon.."<br>
><br>
> be that as it may..<br>
><br>
> SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br>
> ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !<br>
><br>
> cpt qunnoQ<br>
><br>
</div></div><div><div>> _______________________________________________<=
br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
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a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
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