[102218] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Thu Nov 12 03:37:38 2015
In-Reply-To: <0584B81E-4FFB-4877-BD51-19579F9D1A68@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:37:24 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> Let me know if you approve.
it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the
defiance of the original phrase.
the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple
as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I
believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the
culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant
words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to
Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for
war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people
stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand
combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
> Separtanpu=E2=80=99
why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference
> between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in
> one language to the closest words in another language and tie them togeth=
er
> with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second languag=
e,
> then you have encoded one message into another language.
>
> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original
> statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original stateme=
nt
> using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the
> second language, then you have a chance of translating the original messa=
ge.
>
> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to
> translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand
> what you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at tran=
slation:
>
> Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIcha=
ghchugh vaj
> SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.
>
> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!
>
> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were
> contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I
> don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in order=
to better convey
> the expressions.
>
> Let me know if you approve.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > A moment of clarity
> >
> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of
> the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as mysel=
f.
> This concerns something,which is well known to experienced
> klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to
> digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following
> happened.
> >
> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonidas=
'
> response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arms ; i
> was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them" which i
> believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
> >
> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in
> klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure o=
ut
> the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the
> "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* righ=
t.
> >
> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things
> clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my w=
ay
> in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became
> clearer.
> >
> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
> >
> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is
> "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't kn=
ow
> ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as
> defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i
> have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he hear=
d
> it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
> >
> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak
> today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which i=
n
> no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the
> original phrase did.
> >
> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all
> kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that
> modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement)
> feeling of the original phrase.
> >
> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
> >
> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon
> lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate in
> current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon
> would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
> >
> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able
> to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any
> other language has to say. things don't work that way.
> >
> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its
> beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inabilit=
y
> to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficienc=
y"
> ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages ar=
e
> meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that
> individual people are always different compared to each other.
> >
> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo
> in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read
> him in the original klingon.."
> >
> > be that as it may..
> >
> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
> >
> > cpt qunnoQ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>> Let me know if you approve.<=
br><br></div>it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully c=
onvey the defiance of the original phrase.<br><br></div>the beauty of the o=
riginal phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple as can be=
,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I believe=
whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the culture Sp=
artans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant words were=
to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to Klingons a=
s can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for war. And of =
course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people stood against an=
empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand combat,achieving a gl=
orious death in the end..<br><br></div>> Separtanpu=E2=80=99<br><br></di=
v><div>why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?<br></div><div><br><=
/div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The issu=
e I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference between tra=
nslating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in one language=
to the closest words in another language and tie them together with the cl=
osest grammatical form that you can find in the second language, then you h=
ave encoded one message into another language.<br>
<br>
If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original statem=
ent and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement using=
the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the second l=
anguage, then you have a chance of translating the original message.<br>
<br>
After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to t=
ranslate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand what=
you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at translatio=
n:<br>
<br>
Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIchagh=
chugh vaj SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.<br>
<br>
Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!<br>
<br>
Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were c=
ontextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I don=
=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to b=
etter convey the expressions.<br>
<br>
Let me know if you approve.<br>
<br>
pItlh<br>
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun=
@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> A moment of clarity<br>
><br>
> I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of=
the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself=
. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,st=
ill it remains something that newcomers may find hard to digest. At least i=
was finding hard to digest myself,until the following happened.<br>
><br>
> earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonida=
s' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arm=
s ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them=
" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.<br>
><br>
> but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,so=
mething didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out t=
he klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the &q=
uot;feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *=
feel* right.<br>
><br>
> but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things cl=
earer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way i=
n a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clear=
er.<br>
><br>
> but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.<=
br>
><br>
> the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is=
"molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who d=
oesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will=
*feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fac=
t,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's mes=
senger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..<br>
><br>
> but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak to=
day,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get th=
em" which in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggress=
ion as the original phrase did.<br>
><br>
> ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find al=
l kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that mod=
ern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) f=
eeling of the original phrase.<br>
><br>
> thinking all this,i asked myself..<br>
><br>
> does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "m=
olon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot tran=
slate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that k=
lingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?<br>
><br>
> finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be abl=
e to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any ot=
her language has to say. things don't work that way.<br>
><br>
> anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has it=
s beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inabilit=
y to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "defi=
ciency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that l=
anguages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same w=
ay that individual people are always different compared to each other.<br>
><br>
> maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always=
echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you h=
ave read him in the original klingon.."<br>
><br>
> be that as it may..<br>
><br>
> SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br>
> ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !<br>
><br>
> cpt qunnoQ<br>
><br>
</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">> __________________=
_____________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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