[101223] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] splitting -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Sep 21 11:32:11 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E05C349D68@xm-mbx-04-prod.ad.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 10:59:54 -0400
To: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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TKD says that {-vIS} always requires {-taH-}. It doesn=E2=80=99t say =
that nothing can come between them. I don=E2=80=99t see {-taHQo=E2=80=99vI=
S} or {-taHneSvIS} as awkward. Rare, yes, but not awkward. For that =
matter, I could see {-taHneSQo=E2=80=99vIS}.
If the given example, for instance, was part of an apologetic =
explanation to someone a remarkable number of ranks above you, that you =
would not normally dare to address, but for unusual necessity:
vumtaHneSQo=E2=80=99vIS vutwI=E2=80=99 ghung Soj je=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99pu=E2=
=80=99, qaH.
Remember that {-neS} simply means that you are saying this to someone =
you wish to show the honor you feel for them while speaking. It is aimed =
at the person you are addressing. It=E2=80=99s got nothing to do with =
the actual subject or object or meaning of the verb.
Another way of describing positions of the two non-roving rovers is that =
{-Ha=E2=80=99} is pre-Type 1, while {-Qo=E2=80=99} is post Type 8 (or =
pre-type 9).
Anyway, congratulations on pointing something out that most of us might =
never have imagined.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Sep 21, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> =
wrote:
>=20
> I could find no examples of {-taHvIS} - or even {-taH} for that matter =
- used with {-Qo=E2=80=99} on the same verb. AFAIK there are three =
examples where the suffixes are deployed on different verbs in the =
phrase/sentence/utterance:
> =20
> 'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH
> Only an enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle. (TKW)
>=20
> qaStaHvIS wanI=E2=80=99vam yIDachQo=E2=80=99
> Don't miss this event! (WSC)
>=20
> mamevQo'. maSuvtaH. ma'ov.
> Battling on through the Eternal fight. (Anthem)
>=20
> --
> Voragh
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
> =20
> =20
> From: Fiat Knox [mailto:fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk =
<mailto:fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk>]=20
> Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 12:10 PM
>=20
> Has any instance cropped up where you said "while X was refusing to Y" =
and had to insert -Qo' between -taH and -vIS?
> =20
> It just occurred to me that -Qo' can be used in a non-imperative, =
meaning refuse, and that -Qo' comes after all suffixes except a Type 9 - =
so -Qo' should come between -taH and -vIS. Other than -neS, it would be =
the only suffix technically capable of splitting these two suffixes.
> =20
> While *vumtaHQo'vIS vutwI' ghung Soj je'wI'pu' as long as the cook =
refused to work, customers went hungry might technically be possible, =
does it sound awkward - or only as awkward as "To Boldly Go Where No-One =
Has Gone Before" does to an English grammarian with a loathing of split =
infinitives and dangling prepositions?
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">TKD says that {-vIS} always requires {-taH-}. =
It doesn=E2=80=99t say that nothing can come between them. I don=E2=80=99t=
see {-taHQo=E2=80=99vIS} or {-taHneSvIS} as awkward. Rare, yes, but not =
awkward. For that matter, I could see {-taHneSQo=E2=80=99vIS}.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the given example, =
for instance, was part of an apologetic explanation to someone a =
remarkable number of ranks above you, that you would not normally dare =
to address, but for unusual necessity:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">vumtaHneSQo=E2=80=99vIS vutwI=E2=80=99 =
ghung Soj je=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99, qaH.</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Remember that {-neS} simply means that =
you are saying this to someone you wish to show the honor you feel for =
them while speaking. It is aimed at the person you are addressing. =
It=E2=80=99s got nothing to do with the actual subject or object or =
meaning of the verb.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Another way of describing positions of the two non-roving =
rovers is that {-Ha=E2=80=99} is pre-Type 1, while {-Qo=E2=80=99} is =
post Type 8 (or pre-type 9).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Anyway, congratulations on pointing =
something out that most of us might never have imagined.</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Sep 21, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Steven Boozer <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" =
class=3D"">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">I could find no examples of =
{-taHvIS} - or even {-taH} for that matter - used with {-Qo=E2=80=99} on =
the same verb. AFAIK there are three examples where the suffixes =
are deployed on different verbs in the phrase/sentence/utterance:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D""> </span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Courier;" class=3D"">'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS =
ghaH</span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">Only an enemy without honor =
refuses to show himself in battle. (TKW)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(192, 0, =
0);" class=3D"">qaStaHvIS wanI=E2=80=99vam yIDachQo=E2=80=99</span></b><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Don't miss this event! =
(WSC)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">mamevQo'</span></b><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">. <b class=3D"">maSuvtaH</b>. <b =
class=3D"">ma'ov.</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">Battling on through the Eternal fight. (Anthem)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Voragh<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ca'Non Master of the =
Klingons<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" class=3D""> </span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(68, 84, 106);" =
class=3D""> </span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Fiat Knox [<a =
href=3D"mailto:fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, September 20, 2015 =
12:10 PM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2286" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">Has any instance cropped up where you said =
"while X was refusing to Y" and had to insert<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-Qo'</b> between<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-taH</b> and<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=3D"">-vIS</b>?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2286" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""> </span></div></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2286" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">It just occurred to me that<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-Qo'</b> can be used in a non-imperative, meaning<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class=3D"">refuse</i>, =
and that<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-Qo'</b> comes after all suffixes<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><i =
class=3D"">except</i> a Type 9 - so<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-Qo'</b> should come between<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-taH</b> and<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2379" class=3D"">-vIS</b>. Other =
than<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b =
class=3D"">-neS</b>, it would be the only suffix technically capable of =
splitting these two suffixes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2286" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""> </span></div></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2286" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">While<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class=3D"">*vumtaHQo'vIS =
vutwI' ghung Soj je'wI'pu'</b> <i =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1442768570537_2460" class=3D"">as long as the cook =
refused to work, customers went hungry</i> might technically be =
possible, does it sound awkward - or only as awkward as "To Boldly Go =
Where No-One Has Gone Before" does to an English grammarian with a =
loathing of split infinitives and dangling prepositions?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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