[24891] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 7143 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Sep 15 11:07:51 2004
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 15 Sep 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 7143
Today's topics:
Re: $| (undocumented) magic? <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: $| (undocumented) magic? <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: a splice question <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: Best place to learn perl? <shawn.corey@sympatico.ca>
Re: Best place to learn perl? (Page)
Re: Best place to learn perl? <dwall@fastmail.fm>
Re: Get the index of array element <usenet@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Help with globbing chris-usenet@roaima.co.uk
How do I set up DBI? (Rob Richardson)
Re: How do I set up DBI? <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Re: killing a "nobody's" process and its group <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Re: Perl send args to other perl file. <mark.clements@kcl.ac.uk>
Re: Perl send args to other perl file. <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: rand() question <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: rand() question <shawn.corey@sympatico.ca>
Re: Screen Size <Joe.Smith@inwap.com>
Re: Speicherkosnum <es@yahoo.fedeabascal>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <spam@nimblegen.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:00:43 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: $| (undocumented) magic?
Message-Id: <auagk0hcgv9se550ov6hcm6jpan3ca6g9k@4ax.com>
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:43:03 -0400, Sherm Pendley
<spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
>> You may think what you want, but IMHO spending some time on JAPHs,
>> golf et similia is an aid to improve one's programming skills also in
>> "productive" code.
>
>Yeah, but what you practice is what you do by habit later. Do you
>*really* want JAPH-style code to appear in production scripts?
Not at all, and I don't think I do that. Nor do I think others,
including well known JAPH writers/golfers, do.
>Also, JAPHs as sigs tend to give a bad impression of the language to
>those who've never seen any other Perl. They promote the idea of an
>insular community that delights in writing obscure code that's difficult
>for newbies and outsiders to grok.
This is true, though. I must admit it! But it won't stop me from
writing some, every now and again, I guess...
BTW: I've never ever sit down thinking to myself: well, now I'm making
a JAPH. It's always come out of something different. Well, sort of...
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:00:43 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: $| (undocumented) magic?
Message-Id: <20dgk01m9apnhim5rp20kt3d1638n8iu7c@4ax.com>
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:32:12 -0700, Michael Slass
<miknrene@drizzle.com> wrote:
>Isn't that the whole point of a JAPH --- to show how clever the owner
>is at writing obscure perl --- and for the puzzle-solving amusement
>of the rest of us, figuring out how/why a particular JAPH works?
Not at all: it's not necessarily an obfuscation thing. Not necessarily
in the sense of *code* obfuscation: some times it has to do with
*data* obfuscation. And some times it's not about obfuscation at all,
but it's focused on some witty/cool/whatever way to print that
particular string. Think of Abigail's magnificent ones, for example:
often you *do* understand where the data are stored and you can even
grasp more or less what the code does. But you're amazed at *how* it
does it. And in some cases you wonder why the program compiles at all!
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:00:45 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: a splice question
Message-Id: <ukdgk0tng10or5b8n4mfoqvojtrnmq8bci@4ax.com>
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:21:10 GMT, Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
wrote:
> >> but you could also use File::ReadBackwards:
>
> JWK> Or use a list slice (instead of copying the list to an array.)
>
> JWK> print +( <FILE> )[ -10 .. -1 ];
>
>that still reads in the entire file into a list of lines and then slices
>it. file::readbackwards never reads more than it needs (it actually does
>block i/o so it reads many lines at one time).
He did never claim it doesn't. His suggestion was reasonable in that
it achieves the same effect of the cited one eliminating the somewhat
unnecessary step of creating a reference to an anonymous array and
then dereferencing it.
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:56:52 -0400
From: Shawn Corey <shawn.corey@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Best place to learn perl?
Message-Id: <eYW1d.5367$lb5.702582@news20.bellglobal.com>
Hi,
If you want to see what's inside a complex data structure see perldoc
Data::Dumper.
--- Shawn
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In comp.lang.perl.misc on Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:44:31 -0600
> Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>No, I don't know of any books that break things down that way; I
>>deliberately took very small baby steps a book author is not likely to
>>be allowed the luxury to do.
>
>
> And most books start at the other end - building up the expression, not
> breaking it down.
>
> I admit that a "how to parse the stuff you see on comp.lang.perl.misc"
> would be a very nice thing to have! I see many constructs here using
> map and references that confuse me, but are clearly situation normal to
> the poster.
>
> Sometimes I take the time to break it down and fiddle to see what's
> going on , but a lot of the time i've no idea what the poster is trying
> to do, it's been way too compacted for me.
>
> Zebee
------------------------------
Date: 15 Sep 2004 06:30:33 -0700
From: dummymb@hotmail.com (Page)
Subject: Re: Best place to learn perl?
Message-Id: <6742094.0409150530.3ef60f1@posting.google.com>
Zebee Johnstone <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message news:<slrnckf5id.eqd.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au>...
> In comp.lang.perl.misc on Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:44:31 -0600
> Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> > No, I don't know of any books that break things down that way; I
> > deliberately took very small baby steps a book author is not likely to
> > be allowed the luxury to do.
>
> And most books start at the other end - building up the expression, not
> breaking it down.
>
> I admit that a "how to parse the stuff you see on comp.lang.perl.misc"
> would be a very nice thing to have! I see many constructs here using
> map and references that confuse me, but are clearly situation normal to
> the poster.
>
> Sometimes I take the time to break it down and fiddle to see what's
> going on , but a lot of the time i've no idea what the poster is trying
> to do, it's been way too compacted for me.
>
> Zebee
All of you guys have been AWESOME on this post. With the help of your
posts and a lot of tinkering on my part, I do finally understand the
code that I originally posted. I'd be lying if I said I no longer
need to take a class on this stuff though, so I'll look around and see
what I find.
I had one question regarding the original posting's syntax that
puzzles me.
The following 3 lines work great:
print '<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="';
print @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}};
print 'styles.css"></link>'."\n";
But when I try to assign @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}} to a
variable, perl vomits, for example:
$PATH = @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}};
Why can't I assign this value to a variable so that I can use the
variable over and over. I know this must have a simple answer.
Someone in one of the previous postings said it best when they said
that the authors of books tend to work forward with their expressions
when often times we are trying to work backward.
Thanks in advance.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:11:15 -0000
From: "David K. Wall" <dwall@fastmail.fm>
Subject: Re: Best place to learn perl?
Message-Id: <Xns956567A26487Adkwwashere@216.168.3.30>
Page <dummymb@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone <zebee@zip.com.au> wrote in message
> news:<slrnckf5id.eqd.zebee@zeus.zipworld.com.au>...
>> I admit that a "how to parse the stuff you see on
>> comp.lang.perl.misc" would be a very nice thing to have! I see
>> many constructs here using map and references that confuse me,
>> but are clearly situation normal to the poster.
That happens less and less as you learn the idioms of the language,
although I have to admit that I still occasionally learn a new
technique here. I'm barely beginning to learn more large-scale code
patterns; makes me wish I had studied computer science in school.
> I had one question regarding the original posting's syntax that
> puzzles me.
>
> The following 3 lines work great:
> print '<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="';
> print @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}};
> print 'styles.css"></link>'."\n";
>
> But when I try to assign @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}} to
> a variable, perl vomits, for example:
> $PATH = @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}};
>
> Why can't I assign this value to a variable so that I can use the
> variable over and over. I know this must have a simple answer.
You *can* assign that value to a variable. I'd bet the problem is
that you're assigning an array (@{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->
{pscript}}) to a scalar ($PATH), and an array in scalar context just
gives you the number of elements in the array. Maybe you wanted the
contents of the array?
my @PATH = @{$struct->{treemap}->[0]->{pscript}};
> Someone in one of the previous postings said it best when they
> said that the authors of books tend to work forward with their
> expressions when often times we are trying to work backward.
As long as you end up in the same place regardless of the direction
you take, no problem. :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:56:54 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <usenet@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Get the index of array element
Message-Id: <m1ig12-o35.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth "ravi" <ec_au_ravi2000@yahoo.com>:
> In the following piece of code
>
> foreach $element (@array) {
>
> # Is there a special variable to know the index
> # of the array element
>
> }
>
> Is there a efficient way to know the index of the array element inside
> the given loop, assuming i dont have a count variable.
No. Use a count variable.
Ben
--
Like all men in Babylon I have been a proconsul; like all, a slave ... During
one lunar year, I have been declared invisible; I shrieked and was not heard,
I stole my bread and was not decapitated.
~ ben@morrow.me.uk ~ Jorge Luis Borges, 'The Babylon Lottery'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:22:43 +0100
From: chris-usenet@roaima.co.uk
Subject: Re: Help with globbing
Message-Id: <3asl12-82m.ln1@moldev.cmagroup.co.uk>
Michael Slass <miknrene@drizzle.com> wrote:
> # match File One.[gG]<anything>4
> if ( $fileName =~ m/File One\.[gG].*4/ ) {
This also will match file names like "Not File One.gb4" and
"File One.gotlotsmore4u.txt".
Chris
------------------------------
Date: 15 Sep 2004 06:34:16 -0700
From: therobs@n2net.net (Rob Richardson)
Subject: How do I set up DBI?
Message-Id: <f79bc007.0409150534.16f0dc0a@posting.google.com>
Greetings!
I have been maintaining a Perl/CGI application that tries to do
database stuff without using a database, instead working with
cumbersome comma-delimited text files. I would dearly love to convert
it to use a real live database. The application is hosted on a Unix
box, but I am developing it under WinXP Pro. MySQL is available in
both places. Can somebody point me to a step-by-step guide for using
DBI and MySQL under WinXP for somebody who has never done it before?
Thank you very much!
Rob Richardson
------------------------------
Date: 15 Sep 2004 13:41:22 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: How do I set up DBI?
Message-Id: <Xns95656291693Easu1cornelledu@132.236.56.8>
therobs@n2net.net (Rob Richardson) wrote in
news:f79bc007.0409150534.16f0dc0a@posting.google.com:
> Greetings!
>
> I have been maintaining a Perl/CGI application that tries to do
> database stuff without using a database, instead working with
> cumbersome comma-delimited text files. I would dearly love to convert
> it to use a real live database. The application is hosted on a Unix
> box, but I am developing it under WinXP Pro. MySQL is available in
> both places. Can somebody point me to a step-by-step guide for using
> DBI and MySQL under WinXP for somebody who has never done it before?
Fire up a command line: Start -> Run, type cmd, press "Enter"
Type ppm and press enter at the command prompt
Type s DBI and press enter at the ppm prompt
You will get a list of packages with DBI in them. One or more of them will
look like this:
69. DBI [1.43] Database independent interface for Perl
Find the one with the most recent version number, then type i 69 and press
enter. (Replace 69 with the appropriate number in the list you get). Then,
using a similar procedure, find the DBD's you want and install them. Please
do not respond to this before you read the relevant ppm documentation.
(Hint: It is in your computer. It seems like you did not even look in the
ActiveState Perl folder in your start menu before posting.
Sinan.
------------------------------
Date: 15 Sep 2004 13:24:24 GMT
From: "A. Sinan Unur" <1usa@llenroc.ude.invalid>
Subject: Re: killing a "nobody's" process and its group
Message-Id: <Xns95655FB0DC093asu1cornelledu@132.236.56.8>
Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote in
news:UsqdnR3slu2pTtrcRVn-qQ@adelphia.com:
> A. Sinan Unur wrote:
>
>> Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote in
>> news:GN6dnbI-k9MEztrcRVn- qQ@adelphia.com:
>>
>>> Check the originating address - Obviously English is not
>>> his first language.
>>
>>
>> It is not mine either.
>
> Seriously? Well, no one's going to accuse you of speaking gibberish.
> Far from it - from what I've read of your posts here, your English is
> better than that of most native speakers.
Thank you for the compliment :)
> I see your point though - it can be difficult for a non-native speaker
> to decipher a badly broken sentence. Sorry for the flame.
I did not take it as a flame (although my initial post was indeed a flame).
>> For the life of me, I cannot figure out what could
> Just for the record, then - I interpreted it by filling in the blanks:
And, apparently, that was the correct interpretation.
It would have been if I had mentioned that I was not sure if I understood
the question, and given an answer with that disclaimer attached rather than
just calling it gibberish. Apologies to the OP.
Well, thanks for listening everyone. I think this is a good time to end
this thread :)
Sinan.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:09:45 +0200
From: Mark Clements <mark.clements@kcl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Perl send args to other perl file.
Message-Id: <414814e9$1@news.kcl.ac.uk>
ilksen wrote:
> Hello all,
> Can i send vars from file1.pl to file2.pl and display or read the
> sended vars in file2.pl? The goal is to communicate between 2 perl
> appl. wich are converterd to .exe files.
> This is what I have already:
<snip>
You need to access @ARGV. Have a look at
man perlvar
You should always have
use strict;
use warnings;
at the top of your scripts. This will save you a lot of grief in the
future.
Mark
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:18:10 GMT
From: "Jürgen Exner" <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Perl send args to other perl file.
Message-Id: <CaY1d.6286$xH1.3400@trnddc03>
ilksen wrote:
> Can i send vars from file1.pl to file2.pl and display or read the
> sended vars in file2.pl?
Interprocess communication via variables typically requires shared memory.
Very complex and hard to program. I have no idea if there are Perl modules
for supporting parallel programming using shared memory.
> The goal is to communicate between 2 perl
> appl. wich are converterd to .exe files.
> This is what I have already:
> File1
> -----------------------------
> #!/usr/local/bin/perl
> @hello=("test");
> @args=("File2.pl", "@hello");
> system(@args)==0 or die "system @args failed:$?";
>
> File2
> -----------------------------
> #!/usr/local/bin/perl
> if(@hello){
> print "Value: @hello\n";
> } else { print "Nothing received\n";}
>
> When executing File1.pl I get the response from File2.pl "Nothing
> received".
But that is not communication via shared variables. As far as I can see you
are simply passing some values as command line argument, at least in this
trivial example (don't know if your actual code has different requirements).
Maybe you are just looking for the @ARGV array? See "perldoc perlvar" for
details.
And if you need more than just command line parameters then have a look at
"perldoc perlipc".
jue
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 15:00:45 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: rand() question
Message-Id: <sedgk0dbrd8d7g7r98o2fe2uor015iqh11@4ax.com>
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 21:31:45 -0400, "daniel kaplan"
<nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>i'll do that, but somehow the two OFF results don't ake sense to me
(i) Please don't top post.
(ii) You'd better *not* post to clp.
(iii) What are the two "OFF results"?!?
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:00:23 -0400
From: Shawn Corey <shawn.corey@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: rand() question
Message-Id: <w%W1d.5372$lb5.703182@news20.bellglobal.com>
Sherm Pendley wrote:
>
> That's not what you're asking for with this code. You're asking for two
> numbers from 10000 to 109999, inclusive.
>
Actually it's 10_000 to 109_998 inclusive.
--- Shawn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:12:21 GMT
From: Joe Smith <Joe.Smith@inwap.com>
Subject: Re: Screen Size
Message-Id: <9AU1d.47916$MQ5.1072@attbi_s52>
Rich wrote:
> Does anyone know how to get the screen size of the client using
> straight Perl (no javascript)?
If the program is running on your PC, perl can determine the
size of the command-line window being used on your PC.
If the program is running as a service on a server, it can get the size
of the client's command-line window if the protocol being used supports it.
Both TELNET and SSH protocols do, but HTTP does not.
If the client is a web browser, it cannot be done in straight perl.
-Joe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:33:14 +0200
From: Federico <es@yahoo.fedeabascal>
Subject: Re: Speicherkosnum
Message-Id: <ci9ctv$cui$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>
Peter wrote:
Hola, buenas
no entiendo ni patata, pero bueno, no importa, son cosas que pasan.
Aufidersen,
Federico
> Hallo,
>
> folgendes Script kosnumiert Speicher en mass und ich habe keine Ahnung
> warum.
> Leider lässt sich eine DBI Datenverbindung nicht forken, sodass ich
> innerhalb des Childs jedesmal eine Connection öffne.
> Allerdings ist es so, das der Speicher nicht mehr freigegeben wird
> Hat jemand eine Idee?
>
>
>
>
> use DBI;
> while()
> {
>
> if ($pid =fork()) #parent
> {
>
> wait();
>
> }
> else # child
> {
>
> my $dbh = &dbopen;
> print "write data $dbh\n";
> &dbwrite($dbh);
> &dbclose($dbh);
> exit;
>
> }
> }
>
>
> sub dbopen
> {
>
> my $dsn = 'DBI:mysql:max:server';
> my $db_user_name = 'max';
> my $db_password = 'min';
> my ($id, $password);
>
> return DBI->connect($dsn, $db_user_name, $db_password);
>
>
>
> }
>
> sub dbclose
> {
> my $dbh = shift;
> $dbh->disconnect()
> }
>
> sub dbwrite
> {
> my $dbh = shift;
> $dbh->do("select * from test");
> }
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 04 10:21:35 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41482b04$0$2651$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <m3sm9lvwnv.fsf@europa.pienet>,
Greg Menke <gregm-news@toadmail.com> wrote:
>
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <m3pt4qc57f.fsf@europa.pienet>,
>> Greg Menke <gregm-news@toadmail.com> wrote:
>> >Chuck Dillon <spam@nimblegen.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> Antony Sequeira wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Chuck Dillon wrote:
>> >> > How is that related to Saqqddam Hussqqqqqain being a jackass and us
>> >> > spending 100 or whatever billions on removing him and having 1000+
>> >> > of Americans + unknown number of Iraqqqqqis getting killed. How
does
>> >> > that help avoid
>> >> > 9 qqqq 11 or are you confused between Iraqqqqqis and Saudqqqqis ?
>> >>
>> >> If you reread the post that you responded to you will see it has
>> >> nothing to do with Iraq.
>> >>
>> >> However, to answer your question: How does regime change in Iraq help
>> >> avoid another 9/11...
>> >> 1) It removes one of the states that might consider sponsing
>> >> such a future attach.
>> >
>> >Wouldn't it have made more sense to invade Saudi Arabia?
>>
>> No. It would have been the stupidest thing to do. Invasion
>> of Islam's holiest place would have ensure that this mess
>> turned into a 100% religious war.
>
>They're pretty convinced of that already- after all Dubya called this
>a crusade from day 1. I thought this war was about threats, not
>superstition. You wingers keep changing it around. In what way would
>invading and occupying a country that supplies, trains, funds the
>terrorists who performed 9/11 be the supidest thing?
I don't know. Ask Kerry. He's been saying that everything George
Bush did was wrong; this has to include dealing with the Taliban
in Afghanistan.
> .. Isn't the
>stupidest thing really invading a country that neither trained nor
>harbored 9/11 terrorists or even had much of any weapons suitable for
>attacking a neighbor country?
Nope. Transforming attitudes is the goal. If the only justification
of dealing with a mess is revenge, then you do not believe that
mess prevention is a valid reason. I happen to think that mess
prevention is the best approach. We have different styles.
> .. If we invaded Iraq simply because its
><easier>, and then back off from laying waste to whatever we want
>whenever we want inside the country, then we're not really sending a
>convincing message are we?
I have problems with these actions, too. BAcking off is the
very last thing we should be doing with people who think in
the militants' style.
> .. And then, if we choose to get tough and
>carpet bomb any city with insurgent activity, then we become the evil
>country that we're accused of being. This is one of the faces of
>quagmire & we're stuck in it.
Nope. Not carpet bomb. Carpet bombing a city will not work. This
has to be up close and personal.
>
>Kicking around the weak kids does not impress another bully enough to
>leave you alone, you have to beat him up. We started doing so in
>Afganistan, then blew it in Iraq.
Iraq hasn't even had time to start. Nobody can tell if we've
blown it in Iraq. That country is filled with entrepeneur
potential. So far, that potential is getting spent on weapons
procurements and discharges. The trick for success will be
to herd the potential into non-self-destructive enterprises.
That is where we have made a mistake. That guy that was
put in charge favored foreign, not local, enterprises AIUI.
I interpretated this favortism as an effort to appease
France and Germany...I'm not sure about Russia.
>
>
>> > .. Thats where
>> >the terrorist money and terrorist leadership is from.
>>
>> IIRC, Hitler came from Austria. So we should have only
>> invaded Austria to gain control of Africa and Europe?
>
>But Hitler was a real threat to his neighbors and was occupying other
>countries. Saddam could hardly feed his own troops much less invade
>anybody.
This should give you a clue. If Saddam was cash poor what do
you think he would do to acquire more cash. After 1990, Saddam
seems to have into transferring all of Iraq's wealth into his
foreign bank accounts or cold hard American cash.
> .. 10 years ago was different, I'm not vastly fond of Dubya
>Sr., but I think he did the right things in Iraq; he was a better
>president than his son in all respects.
That was a UN effort.
>
>
>> > .. Iraq is chump
>> >change on that account-
>>
>> It's an ideal place. It's located right in the middle of
>> all potential trouble makers; its people are more educated
>> than the other countries' populations so getting them
>> self-supporting doesn't need a cold start. The country
>> was already an enemy who had violated terms of cease fire
>> over and over and over and over and over and over ...
>> again.
>
>Are you really advocating that we invade, depose, occupy, torture and
>kill all for foreign policy convience?
It's called national security and, if that is what it takes,
yes. In this case, diplomacy didn't work; sanctions didn't work;
containment didn't work [please ignore this, Rupert]; isolated
bombing of borders didn't work; cease fires after getting the
shit beat of him didn't work. Other than completely
wiping the country and its contents off the map which is a
physical impossibility, invasion is about the only option
left.
> .. And what in the world makes
>you think the Iraqi economy is going to be self-sufficient anytime in
>the next 5 years?
Who says I think it's only going to take 5 years?
> ..Their economy was a top to bottom disaster, a new
>one isn't "started", its grown. You'll be happy pumping untold
>billions of dollars into their economy over there as long as you don't
>have to pay for it with taxes over here.
Why are you assuming that I think all of this effort is going
to be free?
> .. GOP fantasy-land.
>
>The "violations" of the cease-fire were the equivalent of kids
>throwing rocks at passing airplanes. Big deal.
This is where your logic flaw lies. It was a big deal. Others
interpreted this as weakness of Western resolve.
> .. Saddam's luck was
>going to run out at some point- and keeping the lid on him was VASTLY
>cheaper than taking over his country.
It would not have been cheaper. Not at all.
>
>Well, you've gotten your legally entitled revenge- I hope you like it.
Afghanistan was revenge. This is mess prevention and has nothing
to do with revenge.
>
>
>> > .. heck, even Iran or Syria would've made a much
>> >better target on this basis. Or are we such bullies that we'll pick
>> >the weakest kid to beat up to show how strong we are?
>>
>> Yes. It's a good plan and the cheapest.
>
>So you're feeling pretty good about the bodycount these days. How
>many dead US soldiers and Iraqiis will slake your bloodlust?
Go ahead and count the bodies. I'm amazed it is so low.
>
>I will look forward to your spirited defense of any country in the
>world invading another simply because they can & feel like it.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 04 10:49:58 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <414831ab$0$2651$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <87brg96kfe.fsf@p4.internal>,
Bulent Murtezaoglu <bm@acm.org> wrote:
>
>Soo, another lisper cannot resist the temptation.
>
>>>>>> "GM" == Greg Menke <gregm-news@toadmail.com> writes:
>[...]
> GM> They're pretty convinced of that already- after all Dubya
> GM> called this a crusade from day 1. [...]
>
>In all fairness I think that was plain dumbness in use of langauge.
>He didn't mean a crusade in the historic sense. Even if he thinks it,
>that was nothing more than an unfortunate choice of words. I am 99%
>sure of this as I vividly remeber my jaw dropping when I saw him say
>it in the window to the left of the one I was reading this very
>newsgroup in. The men in that family are not good public speakers
>and they seem to have trouble expressing themselves to reporters.
>I see no malice in that.
This style of language had more to do with born-again Christians
dropping into preacher-speak when talking to more than zero
people.
<snip>
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 04 10:51:59 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41483225$0$2651$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <ci76f5$dgj$2@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>,
anno4000@lublin.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Anno Siegel) wrote:
>This thread is becoming a nuisance in at least some of the groups
>it is crossposted to. I suggest taking out at least the comp.lang.
>groups.
I'll start taking them out but I have no idea where people are.
So, if you're not in a.f.c. and want to read what I write, go there.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:23:11 -0500
From: Chuck Dillon <spam@nimblegen.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <ci9j6q$c4h$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>
Greg Menke wrote:
> Chuck Dillon <spam@nimblegen.com> writes:
>
>>Greg Menke wrote:
>>
>>>Chuck Dillon <spam@nimblegen.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Antony Sequeira wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>Regardless of how we got where we are there are arguably benefits to
>>the "war on terror". That doesn't mean you should miopically focus on
>>them as the sole rationale for regime change in Iraq. See the various
>>U.N Security Counsil resolutions for the primary rationale. Also, see
>>the reports from Blix et.al. that point out the lack of cooperation on
>>the part of the Iraqi government.
>
>
> I still fail to see why invading Iraq has anything to do with "war on
> terror". If the goal is to fight terror (laudable), then why are we
> not invading the countries that actually sponsor it? Afganistan was
> the right step- but who the hell cares if Iraq "obeyed" the
> resolutions? ...
I suggest you look a little deeper into the problem than simply which
states are undergoing what problematic behaviors now or recently. What
is the underlying cause of the terror and how can we address that?
No it's not oil. It is the pressure of social and political change in
the Islamic world that has tried for generations to isolate itself
from, what you and I would call progressive changes, happening
elsewhere in the world. The ever shrinking world is breaking down
their methods of isolation and bringing the fundamental conflicts
between traditional Islam and the modern world to a head. The changes
that occurred over generations in the west and far east are being
flooded on Islam in a fraction of the time. It's no surprise, to me at
least, that there are side effects. A similar thing would happen if we
were talking about applying comparable pressure on Catholicism or any
other religion. It's not specific to Islam.
The west has for a long time taken a hands off "let nature take its
course" approach. Islamic terrorism was an unfortunate side effect
that could be mostly ignored as long as it remained at an acceptable
level and mostly contained in the middle east. Israel has been in a
very disadvantages position as a result of this approach by the west.
9/11 blew that norm to hell.
Bin Laden (and others of his ilk) is, IMHO, similar to what Charlie
Manson was except that where Manson had a relatively small pool of
young disillusioned people susceptible to his powers of manipulation,
bin Laden has many millions. Where Manson had no resources bin Laden
has wealthy backers who want to hold on to their power.
So now the west must take a more active role in the situation. We need
to find a way to contain the problem to the middle east and try to
achieve the prior norm, with a level of acceptable terrorism. And we
need to impress on the Islamic leadership (i.e. clerics) as well as
governments that they must take responsibility for dealing with the
side effects of social change.
Going into Iraq was IMHO justified without consideration of 9/11 or the
war on terror. Setting up a more democratic and educated Afghanistan
and Iraq blows a big whole in Islam's isolation efforts and forces them
to deal with the reality of the 21st century. The process will be
bumpy but we can no longer be patient when the mainstream of Islam
allow violence on the scale of 9/11 or beyond to occur.
As for the go it alone issue. Given the above "theory" if you prefer
and what happened on 9/11. It seems natural that we (the USA) would
have a more acute interest in replacing the "let nature take its
course" strategy with a more active one than other western nations that
were not directly attacked. Those other nations might call for us to
be patient and accept the cost. Basically what we and the rest of the
western world have asked Israel to do for some 50 years. It's not
surprising that the decision to take a more active strategy toward the
middle east was less than unanimous. It also would not be surprising
for only one or two nations to take the lead and therefor the brunt of
the near term acute risk of reprisals while other nations give passive
support.
That's how I see it at least.
-- ced
--
Chuck Dillon
Senior Software Engineer
NimbleGen Systems Inc.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 7143
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